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When Vegans Attack!

Part of me thinks I should just leave this one alone.

But how can I resist?

Yesterday, I woke up to find a Facebook update from low-carb blogger Jimmy Moore regarding a YouTube video posted by a fruitarian “health guru” to remain nameless.

The objective of this 20-minute video, which based on my experience likely took 5-6 hours to put together, was to put as many low-carb/Paleo bloggers, researchers, and writers on blast (that’s slang for calling someone out in front of a group of people) for their appearances and inconsistencies. In other words, it was a 20-minute shit-talking session bordering on immaturity and self-righteousness. Pardon my French.

Those featured included Gary Taubes, Dr. Loren Cordain, Mark Sisson, Lierre Keith, Sally Fallon, Dr. Malcolm Kendrick, yours truly, and a handful of others.

Now, I’ll be honest. The man brought up some very good points, things that even cross my mind every now and then. For instance, I too wonder why so many low-carb leaders and advocates don’t quite appear the part. If fat storage is all about controlling blood sugar and insulin, then what’s up with the double chin and spare tire around your waist?

I understand that everyone’s journey is different, as Jimmy Moore pointed out in his fantastic blog Why So Many Low-Carb Representatives Tend to be on the Heavier Side. And I understand that there a lot of low-carbers who were once hundreds of pounds heavier before changing their diets and they may have not yet reached their goal weights.

But this can’t be everyone’s story!

I’ll be honest, I’ve thought twice about having a few guests on my radio show because the topic was fat loss and the guest was borderline obese. Credibility shot!

Keep it real. When you’re at the gym and you see an overweight personal trainer with an overweight client, you begin to wonder. I know I’m not alone on this one! I worked in a gym for eight years. Members talk.

But again, everyone has his or her own journey. Who are we to judge based on appearance alone?

Actually, who are we to judge period?

But I do agree that more lean, fit low-carb/Paleo peeps need to step up and make themselves heard if this movement is ever going to go as mainstream as we’d like it to go. People need proof. In my opinion, vegan leaders seem to have more of the physical proof that people are looking for.

NO, I’m NOT saying that all of us need to be fitness models! But the muffin tops and man boobs definitely aren’t helping our cause here.

Hmm..something tells me that a lot of readers are going to misinterpret those last few paragraphs. If you’re offended, just remember that it means what you make it mean.

Anyway, back to our vegan blogger friend!

As usual, he cherry-picked his “overweight low-carb/Paleo” pictures and left out guys like Robb Wolf, Mark Sisson, Art Devany, and myself, who can certainly get our Chippendale on if we really wanted to. He even went so far as to leave a comment (posted below) accusing Mark of using HGH and Art of using steroids. This is utterly ridiculous and defamatory, in my opinion. It’s as if all fit meat eaters over 50 are juicing (and not the kind with the fruits and veggies).

SMH.

That’s “shaking my head” for the internet acronym challenged.

Equally annoying, he included pics of vegan athletes, world record holders, and other vegan leaders with great physiques. This was awesome to see! It’s great to see evidence of people physically thriving on vegan diets. Good for you guys!

I’m serious.

Like I always say, there are different dietary solutions for different people. Not all vegans have health problems. Nor do all meat eaters. There’s a lot more to it than what kind of diet we choose to consume.

The problem I have is when vegan gurus act like there are no overweight, sick vegans in the world. Like no vegan has ever died of heart disease or cancer. I can make a 20-minute video of overweight, sick vegans. That’s easy. But I’m not interested in joining anyone’s pissing contest.

The most unfortunate part of all of this is that people actually follow and respect this guy. This is exactly the kind of “guru” Mike, Kevin, and I warned everyone about during the Great Health Debate. This is what happens when the subject of what we put into our mouths becomes less about nutrition and begins to resemble fundamentalism. It’s an unhealthy outlook disguised as health promotion. The two couldn’t clash more.

I thought about posting the video here, but I’d rather not send any traffic this guy’s way. I left a hint somewhere in this blog, though. It’s not hard to find.

If you do find it, set an example and be respectful. Consider it an example of how NOT to be a leader.

Then again, maybe he was just having a bad day and needed to vent. All of us go a little bananas from time to time. :)

Sean

Comments

comments

60 thoughts on “When Vegans Attack!

  1. Heinz von Schieffen

    Just because someone advocates a low carb diet doesn’t mean they follow it. One can intellectually understand how a diet works and it’s effects on the body and still fall to the temptation of Twinkies.

  2. Chris.S

    Oh man I found the vid.. lol that’s incredible. I find as I’m sure you have, vegans are SO much more likely to attack hard, with spite and bitterness, FAR more than any other type. I’m not anti vegan by any means! I’ve done it before, and have quite a few vegan friends. And personal attacks?? Youch. Not gonna win fans.

    It’s EASY to back up either side showing evidence that one works better than the other, if you really want to. As stated always by the best, example all through the health debate last week, everyone is unique and thrives on different diets! Here’s an example right now. Got my bro onto a program years ago. He works out hard, and is mostly low carb, high protein, meat, fish, eggs, good fats, loads of salads etc:

    http://bit.ly/f0oLqp
    http://bit.ly/eVGI3Z
    http://bit.ly/fSGDBR

    And I could certainly post a hundred pics of skinny, pale, dark circled, malnutritioned vegans (or fat tyre gut vegetarians I know that live on cheese and bread), but that would be nasty of me.. right?

    I encountered this ignorance and negativity toward any of the meat experts on the GHD comments. Every single time an expert was pro meat, there was quite a few vegan meat haters just spewing it out. Most of the time what they were saying was just absolutely downing anything non vegan, and you could tell they have not in the least even given an equal thought to the possibility that this type of diet actually has so much science to back it, and works for huge amounts of people.

    I’m constantly stoked by this attitude / blockage in the thinking of crusading vegans. It’s a nasty bitterness / superiority complex that is really ugly. It’s unfortunate that it’s this way, as part of being vegan is “supposedly” striving for a higher state of conciousness.. and IMO that truly is keeping a vast open mind.

    This would include looking at as much evidence as possible on all sides, and accepting (when the evidence is so obviously overwhelming) that some things that go against your personal opinion might actually be a great thing.

    I realised a long time ago no one way works for all. I think the GHD opened a lot of peoples minds to that aspect as well, which was awesome to see. Tools like this won’t win over the general public, only those that also have that extremely narrow superiority complex.

    There are already a decent number of people oposing him there. Hopefully that keeps comin. Anyone with common sense and respect should see this for what it is. Bullshit.

  3. darius sohei

    i regards to low-carb advocates still being fat or otherwise unhealthy:
    because its not as simple as low-carb = skinny. moreso its about endocrine gland health. if people are not healthy eating a paleo-esque low-ish carb diet, then further testing is required.

  4. Damien

    I know exactly who you’re talking about as I use to be one of his followers. Fortunately I didn’t get too caught up in the dogma and was able to be honest with myself about what I was doing. Thanks to you Sean I was introduced to Weston Price and the Paleo crew. So much healthier now mentally and physically.

  5. Mike D

    This guy is retarded. This guy is an endurance athlete first of all. High carbohydrates work well for endurance athletes because they are constantly burning off the carbs and replenishing lost muscle glycogen. He is talking about paleo people not being muscular and being fat, yet we have no idea if the people he is showing exercise at all. A paleo endurance athlete will look thin, just like a vegan athlete will. Then he goes to show muscular vegans who are “ripped” and compares them to Sean, saying Sean isn’t even that big. This makes no sense because you can never really compare two individual people. Genetics play a huge role, and also how big does Sean want to even get? He is showing vegan bodybuilders vs Sean who isn’t a bodybuilder himself, but more of a fitness guy. He is trying to pain the picture that all vegans are lean and ripped then goes and shows the worlds strongest veg head, and looks to have at least 30% body fat himself.

    He is only showing what he wants to persuade people to follow his ideologies.

    We have been eating meat forever. More than a fitness aspect, it is a health aspect. It is what we were designed to eat (with vegetables as well of course). You wouldn’t feed a Lion salad, and you wouldn’t feed a cow chicken (or corn).

    You wouldn’t feed a human strictly meat, and you wouldn’t feed a human strictly vegetables.

    If he is concerned with animal welfare by us eating them, he needs to start teaching the lions to eat salad first before he comes at humans.

    Thank you

  6. Bobby Khan

    Love the post. Its all about finding your own way, not everytihnng works for everyone. and as you say it is something to clean your own backyard before you take on others.

  7. Dave Fish

    Hi Sean,

    I just found your site from Art De Vany’s interview. Great resource! Anyway I’m the one who has been defending the paleo lifestyle and batting down the lies and misconceptions his followers have been posting in the comments. I think you hit the nail on the head in this post when you said it begins to resemble fundamentalism. They change history and science to make them match their beliefs. I know I haven’t been too civil in my comments on that video but sometimes you have to give them a virtual “cuff upside the head”. :-)

    I felt he was a bit harsh in calling out Cordain for being overweight. Compared to most Americans he appears fairly trim (in that picture). And I know the photo of Taubes was either old or doctored. He was in Denver a couple of weeks ago for a book signing and he’s definitely slim and fit now. As for some of the other “gurus” he calls out, well they either aren’t in the paleo movement or who knows if he’s used old or doctored photos of them as well. So it was more than just cherry picking, he altered the parameters part way through the diatribe. Definitely unprofessional.

    One last comment, as Taubes says in his latest book, on a low-carb diet you can get as thin as you are meant to be, not necessarily as thin as you want to be. Either from a messed up metabolism that can’t be completely healed, or from genetics, not everyone can achieve single digit body fat. The banana guy doesn’t understand this and he just assumes that anyone overweight got that way from eating too much fat (meat) and being lazy.

    Cheers, Dave

  8. Andrew

    Sorry Sean. I’m taking his side. I watch both of you religiously but he’s right. Your liberal view of ‘well it may not work for me but it works for you…everyone is different’ is a wrong idea that is dangerously creeping its way into the health world

  9. Chris

    I’m not sure how one can not understand, that it is very correct that everyone is different. How is it a ‘wrong’ idea? If one way worked for everyone no one would ever have to try different things. Individual biochemistry, specific allergies and intolerances, varied constitutions, there are loads of differences.

    Lots of evidence for this everywhere you look. Some people get sick on vegan diets, some get sluggish on meat diets – endless testimonies on both sides for folk who have tried, swapped and finally found their way.

    I think it’s ‘creeping its way into the health world’ *because* the experts are realising how much truth there is to it.

  10. Antj

    Sean it is rough to watch that video. Kinda makes me mad. I WISH, I WISH, you guys could just have a valid conversation, just so he could understand but that would never happen.

  11. UW Sean Post author

    I think some people are not interested in having a conversation. They just want to be right and never open their minds to anything else. Kinda sad.

  12. Jenna Shannon

    Sean, you’ve handled this with a lot of class. Well done actually thanking him for sending traffic to your site! You’re right; the Paleo Hotties need to start showing off more.

  13. Andrew

    so many people have misconceptions about nutrition. Harley Johnston, Michael Arnstein, Dr DOUGLAS GRAHAM, those guys are the REAL DEAL. Were meant to eat fruits and veggies, meat as a last resort food. Though Harley had some mistakes in his analogies, you’d be fooling yourself to not take in the truth of his talk. These “gurus” are self proclaimed. They don’t really know what they’re talking about. Lierre Keith did the diet wrong, yet you guys interviewed her. Harley is an endurance athlete but theres raw vegan bodybuilders who are eating the same high-carb diet…so what do you say to that? Sean, I know that you emphasize good fats and all, but the fat you eat is really the fat you wear, as we see with David Wolfe and Daniel VItalis. I don’t know who deceieved us into thinking that you can still be healthy and fat. The sumo wrestlers weren’t healthy…they were just healthIER than the fat people nowadays because they binged on good wholesome foods and not twinkies, coke, and burgers like nowadays. Our bodies are meant to eat fruits and veggies. Simply look up “How meat is digested” in the google search bar. Do your own research and don’t let gurus persuade you that the sky is green and 2+2=5

  14. Kelly

    “One can intellectually understand how a diet works and it’s effects on the body and still fall to the temptation of Twinkies”

    That is very true.

  15. Fitness training programs

    Man oh man. This reminds me a bit of religion in the fact everyone claims to have the perfect religion so therefore they need to make it known. Its up to everyone to find there own truth in the world and live by it. Everyone doesn’t have the same truth nor the same diet but we shouldn’t get on the ego kick to prove superiority over other individuals or ideals. This is the same thing that has perpetuated every bad thing in our society such as racism and sexism… this need to feel that we are superior over what everyone else does is wrong, and what I do is right. When wise man and fools speak in the distance bystanders don’t recognize which one is the fool and which is the wise men. Its best to keep your mouth shut and let everyone live by their own code.

  16. Michael

    “Equally annoying, he included pics of vegan athletes, world record holders, and other vegan leaders with great physiques. This was awesome to see! It’s great to see evidence of people physically thriving on vegan diets. Good for you guys!”

    We went through a lot of this when myself and other real food, paleo, and low carb bloggers picked up Denise Minger’s critique of the China Study and ran posts about it. You can see my post here:

    The China Study Has No Clothes: Smackdown Of T. Colin Campbell
    http://su.pr/212WcN

    What was interesting is that on several blogs, when they were not copying and cross posting the same comments to many blogs, we got into some serious discussion with several vegan “leaders.” Turns out if you check closely their many examples of success, most aren’t vegan and certainly not raw vegan.

    In other words, they are often claiming as examples people who don’t follow their dietary protocol.

  17. Dawn

    Has anyone ever considered that maybe all humans aren’t supposed to be skinny??

    There are boxers and other athletes who are strong but not ‘cut.’ And don’t get me started on women…it’s just not natural for most women to have a six pack and a defined V-taper. I hard for those for a few years, and during those few years, didn’t get my period. Nuff said.

    I think it’s about being healthy, and a healthy diet and lifestyle will look different on different people. I look at someone’s vitality, complexion, teeth, mood, and energy.

  18. Morley Robbins

    Sean,
    As always, thank you for your candid, pithy and entertaining response to this assault. The issue of “diet” is as much religious as it is physiology. At some level, I wonder if our thought patterns and belief systems don’t enter into this dynamic.
    The other dimension that Cate Shanahan, MD and a growing body of epigeneticists seem to highlight that we are the product of not just our diet, but those of our parents and grandparents. Is it possible that these “cut” individuals, regardless of which aisle of the dietary church they find themselves, could be living off the beneficial effects of a good diet of their ancestors? I realize that I’m opening up pandora’s box with that comment, but as you so appropriately note, it’s alot more complicated than anyone realizes.
    Kudo’s on your thoughtful and measured response. Keep up the great work on creating the Tipping Point!
    Cheers,
    Morley
    Morley M. Robbins
    “Health Czar!”

  19. Grok

    Good man Sean.

    Just to clear a few things up… This guru picks on the skinny/gaunt/emasculated vegans as much (or more) than he does the paleo crowd. He goes after the fruit/carb phobic hard, just like most of the paleo community is after the meat/fat phobes.

    The dietary guidelines he recommends are practically a complete 180° from what half of the paleo community recommends, so there’s going to be clash. He uses some sensationalism (as most passionate/radicals people will) to get eyes on his cause. Whether it’s right or wrong… he may require it. He actually has to fight even more conventional wisdom than the paleo community be taken seriously.

  20. Brenda

    Hey Sean,

    This post got me thinking about some of my favorite physiques, and what type of diets they follow. I realized that all of them eat low carb diets with meat.

    -Oxygen magazine is filled with women who are lean and musclular in a feminine way. All of these women show their diets being low/moderatley low carb. Or they cycle them, sticking to low carb for most days, and then eating one or two carb meals throughout the week.

    -Jennifer Nicole Lee is another fitness model who eats meat, not much carbs, and looks like a goddess.
    -Ava Cowan, incredible fitness model
    -Tim Ferris (author of 4 hour ww, and 4hour body)
    -Jessica Beil (used to be vegetarian, but when she started eating meat is when she started to look like a lean, toned, slightly muscular fitness model)

    I’m a fitness competitor, and speaking to fellow competitors backstage, it seems there is a common theme to their diets…In order to get and stay lean all year round, the carbohydrate intake is kept relatively low. Especially on days when they aren’t training very hard.

    In my experience, there are more lean/physically fit/fitness model body types in those that eat low or lower carb than those who follow vegetarian or high carb or vegan diets.

    I’m sure I could search the web and find some unflattering pictures of the guy who made this video (btw, did you see his ROTTEN TEETH?!?! probably from the ’30 bananas a day’ he eats)…or even some mushy looking vegans/vegetarians…but I wouldn’t do that, because it’s very negative and narrow minded. It’s also tasteless and ignorant.

    Thanks for your post…and for not making a reply video to this dude

  21. Joshua S-H

    Now that i think about it, 180 degree from paleo diet = SAD diet :P.

    Also i think the guy needs to get out more as he thinks that if everyone just ate whole organic foods that it = SAD diet, except for the fact that SAD diet is mostly proccessed food not whole foods.

    He makes me dissapointed to be Australian

  22. Kristy

    I can’t agree enough with this statement:-
    “Like I always say, there are different dietary solutions for different people. Not all vegans have health problems. Nor do all meat eaters. There’s a lot more to it than what kind of diet we choose to consume.”

    This world will be boring if everyone is the same. And, our diet is really only a part in determining how healthy is someone. Don’t forget the stress level, mental health, environment, people we associate with, spiritual health and etc will determine a well-being of someone.

  23. David R. Looze

    I was going to take the high road and explain how everyone is trying to do their best to sell their product or service to the people who take pleasure from it (i.e. McDonalds sells burgers cuz that’s what people want and even the Nazi’s had a pretty significant following).
    However, I am from Chicago and have built a reputation on being too straight-forward (a jerk to some degree). Also I was taught that you stick up for your friends in a fight. So…
    WTF was that video! First I have to ask about this guys taste. It’s a little extreme to show those pix of the animals (skinned dog, dead baby pig, the chicken video) and question Sean’s life choice of a (1 in hand) beer..
    How many of those pix do you think he sifted through to find his “favorites”.
    Nextly, if you show pictures of every doctor in America, you will see that they are all a little overweight as they progress in years. Probobly from stress and the inability to sit down and prepare every meal they eat (oh, and gravity). Where were the pix of the crossfit athletes, or even any of the pro-sports athletes who are woofing down multiple steaks at dinner. I’ve tried veggies after a hard workout and bit my fiance’ in my sleep I was so hungry (not really…

    she’s just my girlfriend)
    The guy even called out your protein sales Sean. The Sh** is vegan protein! But I digress… Let me share my philosophy though.
    “If your the best at what you do, you have to forgive everyone else for falling short.”
    This guy didn’t want a debate, he wanted to make his point and piss you off like calling your girlfriend cuz your at the club. Well, we have too much invested in this relationship and we aren’t leaving.
    (was this too long? I don’t usually reply to posts…)

  24. mark

    Is this the video your blogging about Sean?

    Yeah he made some good points and I think we need to get in shape too.

  25. Grant

    Since when did this guy make himself the last word?! cant believe the sheer arrogance of the guy – no surprise he is from my home town either, left there 15 years ago to get away from clowns like this. makes fitness and health seem dirty with his arrogant rants and put downs. thought I would sign off on a positive note – he took part in some kind of health study with a doctor analysing a cross section of people’s blood who ranged from strict vegan (our hero) to heavy meat eaters… drum roll….. and the results are in:

    Harley
    Remember, Harley completely cuts out anything to do with animal products and relies purely on raw fruit, veggies and nuts.

    His results have got Susie really worried: “My biggest concern is that your vitamin B12 is one of the lowest clinical levels we have ever seen!”

    Harley’s B12 was just 78. That’s drastically lower than the normal intake range from 145 to 637 and means our vegan could be susceptible to anaemia, blurry vision and loss of feeling in the hands and feet in the long term.

    “In the case of vegans, it’s really up to them if they decide to supplement with B12. It is primarily from animal-based food so it’s probably worth him discussing it with his GP or medical specialist,” says Susie.

    On the positive side the rest of Harley’s results were perfectly normal.

    http://health.ninemsn.com.au/dietandnutrition/nutrition/695434/meat-versus-a-vegetarian-diet

    not sure about Susie’s medical qualifications though, definitely thought she would have found some links to dementia in there somewhere…

  26. Peter

    I’m doing a mix of GAPS and Paleo at the moment to recover from my Antibiotics, Ulcers, and Candida Oddisee – and it works for me.
    I’m 1,81 m tall and used to weigh 60 Kilo last summer, now I’m 70 Kilo. So, yes I gained weight, but in a good way.
    I believe the reason why certain people thrive on Paleo may have something to do with the neanderthal gene.

  27. Amanda

    Hey Sean, I would like to hear your opinion about the LCHF(low carb high fat) diet. It has really been blowing up here in Scandinavia, I’m actually on it myself. I’ve just recently heard about the paleo-diet, and it seems somewhat similar to the LCHF diet except we don’t eat fruits and roots since the whole “point” it so stay below ~30 grams of carbs a day to enter and stay in ketosis. Also, as the name indicates, we eat a lot more fat. So far it seems like most people on this diet all loose a lot of fat(including me), but I would still enjoy getting your view on it.

  28. TWC

    Sean,

    Many veggies use an ad hominem, an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise, on low carb/paleo dieters. This is a logical fallacy as being fat/obese does not refute the reasoning or science behind their ideas.

    You did the same thing when you said the diet gurus credibility was shot because they were fat. If they actually said to look at them because they were a perfect example of their diet/fitness plan- then their credibility would be shot. Most, however, don’t so it’s actually irrelevant. Just pointing this out because you shouldn’t really pay any attention to someone making such a fundamental error, or better yet, point it out to them on their own site and video and ask them to explain themselves.

  29. Chris

    Yeah that’s the video. My comment is the one at the top about Dr JE Williams video. He replied to that with a comment about eskimos dying at age 27 (which is completely irrelevant to their nutrition), then blocked me from being able to reply again, lol. He’s also removed tons of comments which were probably intelligent and solid backed up info.

    This is an excellent explaination of Paleo life expectancy and why what he said is irrelevant (which I coudlnt reply with due to rage block):

    http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2010/02/paleo-life-expectancy.html

  30. chuck

    yes, a lot of paleo proponents need to walk the talk and lean out. i have a tough time taking diet advice from someone who is either overweight and/or on some maintenance drug. if you don’t look great and feel great stop shouting from the rooftop about how your dietary philosophy will make other people look and feel great. get your house in order before you start preaching and/or selling. in the end though, the older experts he targeted in the video are certainly leaner than the average person that age.

    really, the last few minutes of the video is the crux of the vegetarian argument. for them it comes down to animal rights. this vegetarian philosophy is flawed in so many ways. it flies in the face of evolutionary evidence. just like the usda, they are attempting to reinvent the human diet. long term this won’t work.

  31. J.J.

    Like most things, the truth probably is in the middle.
    Most people couldn’t keep up w/ the vegan lifestyle, and would end up being less healthy.
    With that said, its pretty douchey to eat a ton of meat at every meal.
    Most people aren’t going to eat free rang/organic fed meat, its a strain on the environment, and killing millions of animals cannot be a good thing.

    Its probably as simple as M. Pollen puts it…Lots of veggies, some meat, and stay away from processed junk.
    I try to make my diet incorporate vegetarian ideas as well as Paleo ideas. But I think both sides take it way too far.

  32. Hugh Peters

    Hi Sean,

    I justed watched the video. I think he’s making a good point. I’m not HATING! :-). I follow Primal/Paleo myself, but the people he mentions aren’t in that great a shape (Besides you) and they’re the top guys/gals in the field. It was biased though, as he never mentioned people “in shape” like Robb Wolf, Charles Poliquin, Greg Plitt etc. Can someone please make a video of Paleo athletes in shape?!

    Thanks

  33. Eko

    “Really, the last few minutes of the video is the crux of the vegetarian argument. for them it comes down to animal rights. ”

    This is why it is dangerous to trust vegans, et. al. Their ultimate concern has nothing to do with health, health is merely a convenient argument to bolster their real cause

    This also tends to imbue them with a licence to lie and deceive at will. For the cause, of course.

  34. Paul C.

    Strange that you use Pollan as your example, because his Omnivore’s Dilemma points to Big Ag, Big Finance, and politics being the main problem, not individual choice. Individual choice is becoming: how do you want your corn?

  35. Martin

    “Can someone please make a video of Paleo athletes in shape?! ”

    I have so far viewed it as meaningless to do so, as a whole branch of workout theory publicly promote paleo eating. have everybody forgot about crossfit all of a sudden? take a look at just the best athletes in the local club to see amazing results with low carb eating, never mind the best they have on offer. Also I thought it was…well, kind of lame to make it into a beauty contest. Since our cultures perception of beauty are troubled to say the least.

    Combat and strength athletes have a long history with paleo like eating. Have you ever seen Armand Tanny? that guy was the bomb at his peak. ate nothing but raw food. Didnt discriminate much as long as it was raw. I reccomend to take a look at Randy Roach’s exhaustive work on the nutriton among early bodybuilders and fitness athletes (then known as “physical culture) “Muscle, smoke and mirrors” and see that we appear to have become dumber with the advancement of science in diet.

    “paleo” is a stamp someone suddenly pulled out of their ass to describe what my grandmother ate minus the potatoes and fermented rye bread. All it does it create confusion and give the vegan cult an angle from which to attack. Eat ‘paleo’ like and you are eating like athletes always did untill science came and confused them. And just like my saintly grandmother who died at the ripe age of 98. vegan athletes are the exception!

  36. RefuseToNameMyDiet

    Hey Sean and Crew,

    I just want to point out that The Raw Voice and you actually have a lot more in common than your differences–if you’ve just look at your similarities. This is of course as much a criticism/suggestion for you as it is for DurrianRider/TheRawVoice, and even myself.

    The similarities that I’m talking about are the urgent, heated, and very necessary proselytization of rejecting the culture of processed “foods” that we currently live in, are currently compromising our quality of life, and are ultimately–one snack at a time–killing us. What can giving up the white foods (rice, flower, sugar) do for our health? Well, it is the basic argument in all good nutritionist work out there, is the basic theme in your work and DurrianRiders, and the answer is EVERYTHING.

    The similarities are abundant–just look.

    Ryan

  37. Mikk

    It’s good to think about why people are doing what they are doing. A bit deeper than just your first impression!

    First people complain that others are people-bashing on forums, and then they bash those people themselves.

    Accept everyone for who they are, you can’t change people. Everyone is different, need different things to feel fine, and everyone has an important place in this world.

    One message reaches one person, another message reaches another. There’s room for both.

  38. tracker

    “Most people aren’t going to eat free rang/organic fed meat, its a strain on the environment, and killing millions of animals cannot be a good thing. ”

    Where the hell do you think the veggies come from? Monsanto probably. Do you think they spare field mice when they harvest their soybeans? How do you think the fish enjoy the runoff from the pesticides?

    Paul C. above says “How do you want your corn?” I don’t want corn. I want to see all these corporate bastards standing in line for unemployment. That’s what I want. By shopping for regular food at the grocery store, people support Big Agra. And how can it be any other way with wages what they are? Most people with families cannot afford to shop local, even though it should be less expensive than having shit shipped half way around the globe.

  39. Rain

    The issue is that we are not all seeing the common ground here. It is not really as much about what we are including as much as what we are not including. Most people would agree that if a deer fell down dead in front of them and a apple fell from a tree we would go for the apple and not bite into the carcus. Humans today in western societies have to undo the brainwashing and bias that their parents and society, which has passed on to them. In order to even get a good objective people need fair view on the matter. It is easy to jump on the band wagon because you love cheese steaks and say hey vegans suck. It is easy to point people in no matter what direction or diet who are the sick ones and who are the healthy ones.

    Meat is and should never be considered a health food. Those on healthy so called omnivore diets are reaping the benefits from the fruits and vegetables not the lean meat. I dare someone to just eat meat and thrive. No fruits, no spice, no sauces nothing added just meat. You would quickly get bored and eventually look for a better diet and for most people they will get scurvy and die. The logic is that fruits and vegetables far out perform any meat product. It is more nutritionally dense and protective. Can people live on grass fed meat and not get sick as long as they were eating lots of fruits and vegetables… for sure. But again diet is not the only the issue. When it comes to animals is it really necessary today (and I am not talking about hundreds of years ago) necessary to eat meat? We do it for taste and convenience and that is about it. Meat analogs (fake meat) have almost reached the point where they can comfort those taste buds. Do animals really have to loose their lives so you can get 5 seconds of pleasure. It is also naive to think that everyone can just jump on grass fed local farm meat. The world eats far too much meat, and the large majority of it comes from ecologically harmful factory farms there is not way around it really. We have gotten to many people to be so called meat addicts. Will everyone go vegan… probably not but the reality is why kill an animal, make excuses that you have to pleasure your taste buds, why ruin the environment which are following generations will inherit and why do most Westerners still risk their own health and their families health with high grain fed animals and pounds of sugar. Together make a lethal cocktail.

    Again it is not about you and if your six pack but it is really about the people you effect, the land you effect and the resources. I think the vegan movement would not be so up in arms if massive amounts of animals were being killed for the someones pleasure. 20 years ago we would have had a different argument where meat analogs were hard to come buy and they tasted terrible. Today really there is no excuse but laziness and selfishness torwards animals. The worst arguement ever used against vegans was like well don’t plants have feelings. Please… that is utter nonsense and if they did eating animals would only be killing more plants.Think about the world you live and how your choices affect the environment and the creatures around us. Animals have far more complex cognitive abilities that most people credit them for. A quick kill is still ending its life prematurely. I doubt anyone would agree to good treatment even if they were gonna be executed quickly and painlessly or as we assume it is. Put yourself in the animals shoes. If someone told you that they were gonna give you a great short life but after they would have to kill you and eat you. Would you think it was ok! Seriously it is not about us. We are not in a survival situation we are modernized humans with choices. Remember the world does not just revolve only around diet as much as I love nutrition.

  40. Rain

    Oh sorry one more thing. I think it is good that these issue are being talked about. I don’t think it is good to be militant and threaten people like i have seen from all movements. We need to put the cards on the table and say hey here are the issues lets try to find common ground.

  41. Cdin Sky

    Have to say that Harley the Fruitarian is a fine fine fine looking man. As are you, of course. He’s muscular, lean, witty, hard working, courageous (can u imagine the flack this dude gets) (Meat eaters are a voracious, vociferous group, i would know ; )

    Harley’s vegetarian wife is absolutely gorgeous. Haven’t seen his teeth… what i HAVE seen look fine. It seems he has had great athletic success with a fruitarian diet – more power to him.

    As for eating meat – I just wish that every meat eater ate the best quality organic humanely raised meat they can afford and obtain. Better for them, better for the livestock. The last thing I would want is cow meat fed on fecal reprocessed waste, chicken litter, GMO soy and corn stalks, inflammation ridden meat due to excessive digestive upset caused by a fattening, toxic and antibiotic laden diet.

    Not to mention the additives, hormones, growth accelerators, probably mood stabilizers and food craving salts and MSG derivatives to keep the animals eating and thirsty.

    We’re a fine lot we humans, aren’t we?

    It’s the horrific abuse that makes one’s skin crawl with contemptuous disdain. Not necessary.

    Eat good meat if you must eat meat. Then your bananas will peel quite nicely.

  42. Jennifer

    Hi there Sean, I have been immersed in the Vegan world by default as I have worked for a large organic supermarket chain and they are putting in ‘healthy eating’ departments in all of their stores. The sad truth is, they have now idea how true health feels or how it flourishes. I actually went to see our CEO speak and he said quote, ‘all oils are repulsive’, from his lips to God’s ears with 12 witnesses to see. It is crazy. I no longer work in that particular department, it was the way it was supposed to be. I still work for the company, it is great.

    BUT they are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Some people can be vegan, for sure. What I have found being a personal trainer for 25 years, as well as a CHEK HLC and an WAPF chapter leader….people can’t thrive and they barely survive!!! Vegans….God Bless them!

    I actually pity them because they are so bitter and upset, but I know it is because they are not getting the right fats and enough proteins to make a stable mood or a cogent thought. What in the world are we in for?

    My husband and I laugh he too is a CHEK II HLC II , if the world is on the edge of final destruction, you know the vegans will not be scrambling for kale and lentils? They will be hunting some meat!!

    Keep up the good work!

  43. FoodHoney

    I think corssfitters lead a good example of low carb done right. I myself am struggling on my journey to get back to being healthy and I don’t feel people would want to learn from me right now as I’m not the picture of health. I do feel if you’re selling something that you need to look the part. Sean, you have influenced me so much and guided me on my journey. I think everyone is different when it comes to what they need to eat and I feel that you make that really clear. I think your message is so positive and I love the fact that you encourage everyone to think for themselves. I feel completely responsible for my own health. If I see someone advocating something I try and listen to what they have to say with an open mind before making my mind up. I do feel that if people aren’t looking a picture of good health and they’re advocating a healthy lifestyle then they should explain where they are in their journey so we understand that we should be listening to what they’re saying, not copying them. A bit like when your parents tell you to do what they say, not what they do! In conclusion…. Sean, you’re the greatest. Thank you :)

  44. Brooke Lorren

    I agree. If I could actually follow everything that I’ve learned in the past year, I’d be so much better off. I am eating better, but it’s so hard to give up my Coke completely. But I’m trying :-). I don’t buy any to keep in the house any more at least.

  45. Thoma

    People just simply need to stay away from processed foods and eat smaller portions. My friends parents brought a whole cow, that is pasture fed and hormone free. That whole cow is a enough meat for the whole year and one year after doing this, they have lower blood pressure and lower cholesterol.

  46. laurie gillies

    To me Sean, one of the ways health is determined is quite paleo indeed. How are the felmale of the species attracted to a man and vis versa?

    I.E. do WE think you are strong enough to provide nourishment for our children, can you defend us, and do you have enough body fat to survive a winter to protect your family again in the spring??? The same goes for men choosing women to bear their children. A little body fat goes a long way in an extended blizarrd…….

    While none of this concerns modern woman in the city, who more often than not can and does provide for her own children, I would no sooner fuck (oops, I mean be attracted to) such a skinny loser as the raw voice guy……..

    He couldn’t provide for me and his family if his life depended upon it. What does he think he can do? Store enough bananas throughout the winter to keep us alive?

    LOL, and it also cracked me up that he pointed out the ‘guts’ some of the paleo gurus were sporting. Quite frankly, I like a little meat to fondle. Now if had held HIMSELF up as one of the muscle bound vegans he cited, well then maybe. But as he stands now he sounds and looks like a crack addict who hasn’t had a fix in a while…..IJS

    Hehe

  47. Katie

    “Most people would agree that if a deer fell down dead in front of them and a apple fell from a tree we would go for the apple and not bite into the carcus.”

    That’s culture talking. You can be taught to prefer the apple, or you can be taught to prefer the raw meat. The primates to whom we are related eat a wide range of things, from raw fruits and grasses to raw animal protein. That’s their biology coming through.

    We do that have sense of savory that we love to satisfy, and a number of things can: Parmigiano-Reggiano, Roquefort, and like; tomatoes; and a good steak. That alone should tell us something. A steak seasoned with just salt and pepper–the same things that make broccoli taste good–is delicious, and exceptional when served medium-rare. So are smoked salmon, eggs poached lightly enough that the yolks break through the egg white shell and run all over the plate at just the touch of a fork, bacon, and really good sourdough bread.

    No one said you need to eat five pounds of meat a day to be healthy, but properly raised animals will certainly add a nice bit of nutrition.

  48. Karen

    as Paul Chek says, “Wear it before you share it”. I am with you, you need to practice what you preach to others. While certainly no one is perfect, credibility by embracing your beliefs and words with action is important

  49. Cure Cavities Naturally

    Regardless of what a vegan looks like, I have not seen very many off them that are truely happy. I think this is a result of being hormonally deficient. While i am not a true ‘Paleo’ follower, I believe natural nutrition is super important. God gave us sharp pointy teeth for a reason. I also believe the food God intended for us to eat was not made will a label or approved by the FDA.

    I think your youtube videos are great, I am a big fan!

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